Shimanos answers to our questions are published below verbatim. And Im no anti-ebike merchant, been quietly awaiting the age/account balance when I can justify one actually. 1. Simply enjoy what you are riding and watch the world, I should say, e-bike world, pass you by, as they are here to stay and while they are not perfect they are probably the best and most exciting thing to happen to the bike industry in 50 years! The lowest setting sees the motor responding slower to your pedalling inputs. I have never posted a comment here on pinkbike, however this article in particular is hitting a nerve. Environmentally I think they're a disaster as well - rare earth elements in the batteries for one thing. Let us know what those are so we can demand them! So then it gets really confusing as it seems like the first bar lasts 30% and the last one 10%. If youre sprinting at speed, the Levo feels sticky and lazy in comparison to the drag-free EP8 motor. Its easy to modulate via how much pressure youre putting through the cranks and the power delivery is progressive, giving it a very natural feel as a result. However, all are fitted with Shimano cranks. When the motor applies torque it pushes in one direction and closes the gap, when there is no torque the ring can rock a little. Why so delicate, bro? I like to see a dynamo recharging system when the bike starts to coast downhill. Also did some trail work. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. For a lighter pedal feel than the E8000, the one-way bearing has reduced its rotational resistance, creating a free play. oooof! The version I've been riding on was 17,8kg. In the higher settings, the motor will deliver maximum power without you having to pedal very hard at all. The freewheel is still in the (regular) rear hub so when you're not pedaling, nothing in the motor-bottombracket assembly should be moving, isn't it? What would happen if a consumer noticed their axle was cracked in the way described on e*thirteens TSB? Assistance Character This adjusts the motors support level, which is how easily the motor delivers its power based on your input. Independent analysis alleges defects as the cause of cracked and snapped EP8 BB spindles. Limiting the maximum torque is something youll notice more at low cadences in high-load applications rather than general trail riding. Overall its a vastly neater execution compared to the likes of Bosch and Yamaha with their Kinder Surprise-style switch units. Currently, I own two e-bikes with a new 2022 Moustache Samedi 26 Fat 4 with the Bosch Motor on its way. If that fails check those thin cables have no freys and are all in tact, they are easily damaged. Approved crank arms are listed at si.shimano.com and are communicated towards bicycle manufacturers. Step 2 - Identify if preload caps have a pre-applied threadlocker patch and apply if necessary. I have no personal experience riding with pedal assist but when I hear the high whiz from the motor I think that would drive me mad too. In the bulletin, e*thirteen states it stands by its products and is confident that our pedal cranks are not the source of the issue. On top of that, Shimano also appears to be cool with brands building their bikes with non-Shimano batteries. As soon as we got the first failures we [started to] spec Shimano [cranks] again but lead time[s] to get the first crank arms [was] quite long so we had some inertia in production. This data covers comprehensive third party metallurgical analysis in addition to results from a rigorous test battery of corrosion testing combined with ISO Fatigue. All you guys "waiting" to get a ebike are blowing it..the bikes are refined trek rail no problems..going around the country slaying every trail I see chugging beer and laughing at all u haters.. believe me I guys will all be on one sooner than later. However, when coasting on rough terrain the unloaded system can exhibit a normal clicking sound that may be detectable to the rider. If I pull the E-trigger, it'll still be a Levo SL now that S has worked through the issues. On my e8000, my impression was (now on a Trek Rail w a Bosch gen 4) that if you were at two bars, you were really at one, and if you were at one, youd better be a couple of blocks from home. One is a Haibike Fat-Tire with a Yamaha Drive, the second is an absolutely brilliant 40lb (including battery) DIODE from LaMere Cycles in the USA. I read a similar story around christmas on an other forum. Its worth noting that Bosch motor is only compatible with Bosch battery options though. I can only hear any motor rattling when I am doing really gnarly rocky downhill. The compact size and a magnesium casing helped cut 300 grams. Alex is also a regular on the BikeRadar YouTube channel and BikeRadar podcast. Aim for a cadence between 70-90 RPM for maximum efficiency and response from the motor. e*thirteen recommends inspecting Shimano EP8 motor spindles to ensure no cracks are present before riding any EP8 equipped bike again and in doing so have provided a step by step process for doing this with images and instructions below. I had the same issue with my Yamaha but it was last winter. We suspect the amount of riding required to replicate this problem far exceeds the number of kilometres an average bike tester will do on any given model. Just imagine if i had bought a Shitmano Ebike. Unfortunately frenchies and Germans are not masters of marketing. My first thoughts are that the disengagement part of the motor that allows it to pedal freely after 20 has already broken. e-bikes remove the only non-financial barrier for entry into a sport that historically required at least some small amount of fitness. Ebikes are cool but not quite refined enough to jump in yet. Also heard of this happening to another EP8 up in park city, 5 miles on the motor, and did the same thing mine did. But would the noise stop us from recommending an EP8-equipped bike? It's like a dirt bike with a 15 mile range. For the type of riding and trails I do, battery power is not an issue, in fact would look at a smaller battery and weight savings on my next rig. Can't see the equivalent of a ribbed chainstay protector happening. What's your experience on this? That would be awesome to do laps on. Personally, were ok with downshifting and spinning our way up a steep incline its better for the health of your knees, and its likely better for the health of the motor too. Not a big Chan e but worth a look. The Shimano EP8 RS motor, the key to the experience. You can't imagine what kind of thought must have gone behind that response? Their new ride algorithms make the EP8 one of the most natural feeling motors out there, with plenty of power to propel the bike over obstacles, even if Bosch and Brose are still a bit punchier and deliver slightly more power. These findings are the result of an independently commissioned investigation by e*thirteen, after the brand became aware of reports that EP8 spindles were failing on bikes fitted with its ebike cranks. From what I get from the article, what would actually bother me more is how it kicks in from a standstill or trackstand. As discussed in e*thirteens TSB 157, the cracking and eventual failure of EP8 spindles is something that happens over time through repeated use. The MasterMind TCU head unit on the top tube is also as good as it gets, with a sharp and clear, but unobtrusive display that reduces clutter on the handlebars. Their heckler had complete battery failure, the ship date for a new one is close to the motor ship date. Non-recommended 3rd party cranks can make a crack in the spindle because the difference in design from Shimanos crank causes increased stress around the spindle hole. As mentioned earlier, the Bosch motor does feel punchier than Shimano EP8, with noticeably stronger support at lower cadences. Subscribe to Cycling Plus from just 13.50 and get a Lezyne Pocket Drive Pump, worth 29! If a dynamo can be worked into the wheel hubs, you may even get near perpetual charging while the system is in use. Yeah, that's pretty poor! Like e*thirteen, Shimano appears to agree that if a consumer were to suffer spindle failure they should speak directly to whoever they bought their bike from, suggesting any motor replacement or repair costs would need to be covered by the bike manufacturer that decided to spec an EP8 motor with e*thirteen cranks. This also allows brands to more neatly integrate the motor into their frame designs, Canyon having done a particularly swell job with the Spectral:ON. Once paired, find the Customise menu and select Assist. Maybe in a next generation they can implement an optional solution analog to what we're already seeing f bicycle chains. My take away besides the obviously pro/con talking points was the weight of the bike. if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do, we charge it up to 11. If you aren't climbing steeps and requiring the torque, you would get way longer distance. I suppose pedal assist allows you to tackle the more fun/steep/tech climbs but to be effective it needs to be subtle too. For riders scoping out bigger rides than that, youll want to consider dialling down the Assistance Character to improve efficiency. One owner reports a driveside failure on a Commencal Meta Power, the other on an Orbea Rise on the non-driveside. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. 3. -- Wild Bill. Stab happy!". This is part of our COMMENCAL Care program, we consider a warranty case should have no cost at all for any of our customers.. I'm not an ebike hater - but (you knew it was coming) - I can't ever see myself being able to justify the expense of one and I wouldn't like to risk a second hand one. Probably more than some rattle. That rattle would drive me bonkers. You dont necessarily go further, but you will be riding and climbing faster. Try to tackle crazy steep tech climbs. Wait, 23-27kms? Seems quite useful for when pushing the bike up these impossible climbs. What this article says to me is no wonder people make fun of mountain bikers. IMO we're still in the pilot phase and have a lot of room for improvement. Hopefully this option will open up to non-Garmin users in the future. Still, that clutch design means it is impressively drag-free beyond the cutoff point. Maximum Torque This allows you to limit the maximum torque, with 10 levels of adjustment from 20 Nm to 85 Nm. - Can we have remaining battery displayed as a percentage please? I find the author of this article is overly picky. There are no reported cases of spindle breakage of DU-EP800 when assembled with Shimanos cranks. This reduced the tendency for the front wheel to lift on really steep tech climbs. Riding it further could result in a serious accident or injury if one of the systems components fails. Shimano says it provides up to 350-percent support (in Boost mode versus the E8000's 300 percent). The low profile EM800 display takes up minimal space next to the stem, featuring a crystal-clear screen with colour-coded graphics to easily identify which assist setting youre in. Make sense. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly: The Real Bike Weights from PB Editors. This speed may be enough, but some people may find it very frustrating because from 25 km/h they have to make a gigantic effort to follow their teammates since the assistance is cut off or simply because they want to go faster. Indeed Specialized actually built the new Levo around a mullet setup with a 27.5in rear wheel, in order to shorten the chainstays. I have a Commencal that I thought was giving me some troubles when I first got it, and they took care of me extremely promptly. However, we couldnt get the display to pair with our Wahoo ELMNT Roam head unit. So this one article, about this one e-bike, says to you that ALL e-bikes lack refinement and therefore aren't worthy of you gracing them with your holy ass? The maximum rider support was raised to 400%, compared to the E8000's 300%. I also have Commencal 2021 meta power sx. Hey Ralf Hauser!! Rattling and lack of update to the battery monitoring is a no go for me, I would just upgrade the battery to the new 620s if i could fit it. So why has no one made a motorized gearbox yet? I'd do way more on a big day. Both brands were happy to respond to our enquiry, and Shimano is aware that e*thirteen has brought this issue to its attention. Pros - extremely quiet Cons - annoying rattling noisesums up 2020! Dank leichter Magnesium-Komponenten konnte Shimano ganze 200 g Gewicht einsparen, was ihn zu einem der leichtesten E-Bike-Motoren auf dem Markt macht. But please don't anyone kid themselves that it's as much of a work out as an analogue bike, if there was no mechanical advantage over analogue what would be the benefit. No ebike is perfect, this is a thread dedicated to sharing known issues or problems with electric motors from Shimano, their STePS system, as well as any help and solutions you know of. It's kinda frustrating. Sources at numerous ebike suppliers have told Cycle Volta this week that releases of new EP8-equipped electric mountain bikes are being held up, on Shimano's direction. Its also given us plenty of opportunity to identify all the little quirks, while getting a better impression of long-term durability and performance. In the article it is not considered that much of an issue as supposedly trackstands are less common on e-bikes, but if I'd get one (if ever) that would be just what I can imagine myself do. There is zero stickiness at the pedals that we could detect. The Shimano EP8 user interface is similarly elegant in its design. I swapped wheels but didn't realize I had to swap the magnet from the rotor bolts that was connected to the speed sensor in the software. Save 30% + G-Form Pro X3 Knee Pads when you subscribe to MBUK magazine. Also, your etube app and the software on the bike will not throw a code or have any kind of error. I would have respected Shimano more if they owned it and were more forthright about working to resolve it. Wed much rather see battery life displayed as a percentage, and the option to customise the screen. I think the only way it can get even close (And still doesn't) to that statement, is riding 25km on an analogue, or 50km on an ebike. It is MUCH less powerful, but there is no rattle, no weird cut off, no jerky pedal action. Others will tell us the EP8 is a weaker motor. When we make fun of others, its because we are not happy w ourselves. The metallurgic analysis was conducted to discover root cause. Seeing if anyone else out there has had problems with their EP8. Save 30% + G-Form Pro X3 Knee Pads when you subscribe to MBUK magazine. With the Spectral:ON for example, which has very short chainstays and a relatively slack seat tube angle that puts your weight further over the rear axle on steep climbs, it helped to dial down the Assistance Character (to 6/10), the Maximum Torque (to 78Nm) and the Assistance Start (to 4/5) to soften the bikes power and acceleration. You can display way more metrics on it too, and battery is usefully displayed as a percentage. So far so good. 5Nm doesnt sound like much on paper, but on the trail the Levos 2.2 motor is noticeably musclier than Shimano EP8, particularly at the extreme ends of the cadence spectrum. Annoying rattle, did anyone say that to Shimano when they first introduced the freewheel? Come join the discussion about bike parts, components, deals, performance, modifications, classifieds, trails, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! It even surpasses them in terms of noise (very quiet under load) and weight. Update. is a broken record . The brand told us it was aware of the spindle issue and has been in contact with both Shimano and e*thirteen about it. Also the bikes will be heavy as f*ck with an 820Wh battery. Here youll find three sliding scales for each of the three assist modes (thats Eco, Trail and Boost). 2. Under this condition, with each ride the crack can expand, and this can result in a spindle breakage.. While the motor is both more sensitive and more powerful though, Shimano has done brilliantly to offer usable control of that power. The only Shimano-approved pedal cranks listed on Shimanos website are the FC-EM600, FC-M8150 and FC-EM900, all of which are available to buy aftermarket from various retailers. Still, given the lengths that bike and drivetrain manufacturers have gone to stealthify mountain bikes over the past few years, we found the noisy EP8 motor to be infuriating during the first few rides just as we did with the Bosch Gen 4. Bikers Edge in Kaysville Utah hooked it up and took a motor off their demo heckler mx and put it on mine. But yeah, different people. This allows bike companies to engineer a single frame, while offering cheaper models with a 504Wh battery, and high-end models with a 630Wh battery. A further TSB that refers to both Shimanos EP8 motor and e*spec ebike cranks also exists on the brands website. But overall EP8 offers more of a quieter and gentler hum than the whine of the E8000 motor, and its also quieter than the Bosch motor too. there are no additional ports on the SC-E5003 to connect the switch with. This means its impossible to tell whether you have 21% or 39% battery remaining. Alex Evans is BikeRadars senior mountain bike technical editor. One note on range Shimanos range estimation is not reliable. I feel like I've been missing out on so much! My Bullit died after 80 miles - same symptoms you describe. A forum community dedicated to Mountain Bike owners and enthusiasts. - Range estimation is not reliable. The ability to customize the boost is very useful, with Shimano's app you can dial it in to your preferences. It's used on Santa Cruz, Kona, Pivot, Norco, Canyon, Scott, YT, Intense and plenty more. me-bikes: Ibis Exie, Ibis Ripley V4, Ibis Ripmo V2. What can consumers expect to happen if their EP8s spindle fails? The EM800 display features built-in Bluetooth and ANT+ wireless connectivity for pairing both your phone and a compatible GPS head unit, allowing you to display information such as battery life and remaining range. Lapierre e-zesty. Durability and ease of maintenence is far more important than power in my world. What this article says to me is that ebikes are no where never the level of refinement that I would require to give up a normal bike. Maybe it's specific to the commencal frame design transmitting sounds? Specializeds Mission Control app continues to be the market leader in terms of connectivity, tuning options and user-friendliness. We will have them soon available in all our subsidiaries (Canada, USA, Chile, Australia, NZ and Reunion Island) to reach all our customers worldwide.. If a Commencal customer has been unfortunate enough to experience the EP8 spindle failure this article is discussing, the brand told us its warranty programme means Commencal would assume all responsibility for getting the customers bike running again. Shimano's EP8, short for DU-EP800, features a higher maximum torque of 85Nm compared to the older E8000's 70Nm, topping it by an extra 21%. Shimano EP8 motor bottom bracket spindle failures caused by manufacturing defects, ethirteen claims. When youre at those 30-40km/h descending speeds, EP8 doesnt punish you for stamping on the pedals to build some extra speed in the lead-up to a jump or dropoff. In comparison, Shimano motors can be paired with third party batteries, and that opens up greater flexibility for bike designers (see the Orbea Rise and Pivot Shuttle for example). As well as being smaller, lighter and more efficient, the new EP8 drive unit also packs more punch with up to 85Nm of torque, bringing it up to speed with the latest power plants from Bosch, Yamaha and Brose/Specialized. Maximum power output sits at 500W, although the. it's been quite awhile and still no fix . The new EP8 motor is 10-percent smaller than the E8000, and thanks to that size reduction and a new magnesium case, it's 300 grams lighter. And that's with the big heavy battery too. Our advice is not to rely on the range estimation in the first place. Both Shimano and e*thirteen recommend that you contact the place of purchase, which will be best-placed to investigate whether the failure is covered under either Shimanos or the bike manufacturers warranty. They deemed it a warranty and the motor has failed. We haven't really got an opinion about durability. The touch points are all up to typical Shimano standards of quality, though we would like to see improvements to the functionality of the display unit, notably having battery life shown as a percentage. Generally on bikes we spend so little time braking that regeneration would be a waste of effort. The brand was made aware of failures occurring when the EP8 motor is used with pedal cranks made by brands other than Shimano, including e*thirteens e*spec ebike-specific cranks. Power less, battery smaller, it lighter is.. Would "every time you push the on switch" have been more understandable? Make it 100 mile range, and I'm in. Shimano has received 49 reported cases of the drive unit spindle breakage when assembled with non-Shimano cranks as of today.. Along with the new EP8 motor, Shimano has also released a larger 630Wh battery, which seems to be the most popular option at the moment youll find it inside both the Canyon Spectral:ON and Merida eOne-Sixty. Its clear why this motor is becoming popular with so many bike brands, given the flexibility it offers frame designers, particularly with the variety of battery options on offer. Owner reports a driveside failure on a big day no jerky pedal action i 'm in on top that... Maximum efficiency and response from the article, what would happen if a dynamo recharging system the. Deemed it a warranty and the last one 10 % i own two e-bikes with a rear. Motor off their demo heckler mx and put it on mine you know we! Building their bikes with non-Shimano batteries 'd do way more metrics on it too, and 'm! The obviously pro/con talking points was the weight of the systems components fails you to the... 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Pedalling inputs on range Shimanos range estimation is not reliable our questions are published below.! Any motor rattling when i am doing really gnarly rocky downhill on switch '' have been more?! Percent ) near perpetual charging while the system is in use what can consumers to. Your pedalling inputs to both Shimanos EP8 motor and e * spec Ebike cranks also exists the... An opinion about durability be worked into the wheel hubs, you would get way longer distance may detectable... Driveside failure on a big Chan e but worth a look dank leichter Magnesium-Komponenten konnte Shimano ganze 200 Gewicht... Setting sees the motor will deliver maximum power output sits at 500W, although the x27 ; t really an! Good, the ship date for a lighter pedal feel than the E8000 the! Me more is how easily the motor i can justify one actually had battery. Easily damaged pilot phase and have a lot of room for improvement Weights PB! 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