I love nothing more than to explore the weird world of sandstone. Its a hidden gem located off the beaten path, so you arent likely to see many other hikers. ADULT (13+) $129 . Moab is surrounded by a sea of buckled, twisted and worn sandstone sculpted by millennia of sun, wind and rain, Previous Group At the end of the amazing Negro Bill Canyon is the Morning Glory bridge trail and it makes for a pretty amazing hike. Water. Follow the faint trail to the right once you exit the canyon until you reach the obvious start of Spooky Canyon. You dont need any special gear or technical skills to do Zebra, but good fitness and prior experience in slots will help a lot, and you cant be claustrophobic or afraid of wading through dirty water. Located on Navajo lands, this slot canyon can only be visited on a tour. To help you choose a hike outside the parks, we've selected a few of the best. Governor's Office of Economic Opportunity. No, day-use permit is required for Butler Flat Road.Pet Friendly? Are you ready to go exploring? A slot canyon is a narrow canyon that is formed from water rushing through rock. As you visit, do your part to keep Utah Forever Mighty. It ends up a 234-foot natural rock with amazing views and a lot of quiet serenity along the way. Druid Arch. When you venture out to these two slot canyons, you are really going off-the-beaten-path. Dont bust the crust. Definitely come prepared and be aware of your surroundings as you hike. One slot canyon near Moab is the Mary Jane Slot Canyon. Inside this guide to the best slot canyons in Utah youll get expert advice about how to safely enjoy these stunning environments. Looking to venture beyond The Narrows and Angels Landing? NoHighlights: Two beautiful waterfalls (one which youll see earlier in the trail and one inside the slot canyon at the end) + a natural waterslide perfect to grab a quick lunch at. It is possible to do this as one long day hike, going point to point, although some hikers do this in two days, camping overnight along the trail. Hunters Canyon (4 miles roundtrip) This easy trail goes up Hunter Canyon, just south of the Colorado River west of Moab. Extra socks arent a bad idea either especially if there are reports of water in the canyons. Whether you're getting ready to hike, bike, trail run, or explore other outdoor activities, AllTrails has 273 scenic trails in the Moab area. Avoid the mad scramble and consider slow travel as a better approach to your Utah trip. Scratching your name on the walls and destroying ancient rock art with your own markings are actually federal felonies, so dont do it. The entire time the trail will go in and out of the creek. Cell phone service is often non-existent and even SOS devices will struggle to send a signal in a deep slot canyon. These magnificent hikes, located in the Dry Fork area of the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument area, can be done individually, but they make for a killer loop you can tackle in one afternoon of adventure. All Rights Reserved. It would be hard to take a bad picture here. This is the quintessential slot canyon hike. A slot canyon is a narrow canyon passageway formed in rock (usually sandstone) that has been eroded by water over time, eventually creating a keyhole-like crack in the rock that is just wide enough for a person to fit through. The Mill Canyon Dinosaur Bone Trail in Moab gives you front row access to one of the largest and most diverse dinosaur track sites in North America. Start by heading down the wash at the trailhead until you reach a signed junction. A hat helps too. Local Tip: Hole in the Rock Road gets very impassible (read: mud soup) when wet, so plan accordingly or have a 4WD vehicle). Above-rapid scouts are always intense and foreboding, particularly when the rapid you're scouting is Lava Falls. (Phi Phi Leh), Santorini Greece Travel Guide: Things To Do In Santorini Island, Navagio Beach Greece: Shipwreck Bay In Zakynthos Island, Zakynthos Greece Travel Guide: How To Visit Zakynthos Island, Phi Phi Island Thailand Travel Guide (Koh Phi Phi Islands), Huayna Picchu Hike: The Machu Picchu Stairs Of Death, Utah Hiking Guide: 17 Best Utah Hikes & Trails, 35 Best Things To Do In Oahu Hawaii (Fun, Couples, Free), 25 Best Hikes In Indonesia: Volcanoes, Waterfalls, & Jungles, Koko Head Hike: Koko Crater Trail & Stairs In Oahu Hawaii, Angels Landing Hike: Epic Chain Trail In Zion National Park Utah, Komodo Island Indonesia: National Park & Dragon Tour. Know how to stay safe and informed during your Utah trip and who is helping when you get into trouble. A 1000 foot elevation gain/loss in 2.5 miles leads way to beautiful spires, tight slot canyons, and incredible river views. Thanks for looking! Almost anyone will enjoy this family-friendly Utah slot canyon. NoPet Friendly? Parts of the slot canyon can be challenging to hike through but your reward is seeing these extraordinary striped canyon walls. Fun rock formations. If you are planning a road trip through the USA, visit our United States Travel Guide for more inspiration and travel planning tips. The Ultimate Guide Dog Friendly Hikes in Escalante, Utah! Heres a Utah slot canyons map you can use to plan your own road trip. Of course I cant make a list of the best slot canyons in Utah without mentioning Antelope Canyon, which is famous for being one of the most beautiful places in America! Spooky lives up to its namesake. One slot canyon near Moab is the Mary Jane Slot Canyon. Flash flooding can be very dangerous in a slot canyon. The answer is yes. Here are several tours and entrance tickets to popular slot canyons in the American Southwest. Getting stuck in a flash flood is deadly dangerous so never gamble with a rainy forecast even if the percentage is small. Morning and afternoon trips available. You can stop and turn around whenever you want. Yes, but some scrambling is required so you may need to lift your dog.Highlights: over a mile of narrow slots, amazing canyon views on the backside of the canyon. Paula Colman joins a weekend retreat for women in Moab, Utah, that has an eye-catching mission: Build your tribe. Antelope Canyon is a favorite with photographers, and for good reason. Its located less than an hour from the popular Bryce and Escalante areas, so its definitely a good one to add to your Utah road trip! Location: Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument on Hole-in-the-Rock Road Distance: 5 miles Difficulty: The trail to the slot canyon is easy; the slot canyon can be challenging Read more: How to hike Zebra Canyon. The desert can be very cold in the winter. Reservations open three months in advance. This hike follows an easy trail to a rider overlooking the Fisher Towers, which are scenic rock formations eroded into interesting shapes. More information at go.nps.gov/archesticket. The State Park sports a morbid name, but it's one of the most scenic stretches of landscape around Moab. But if you only have time for one, how to you decide which one to visit? Slot canyons are more common in the San Rafael, Robbers Roost area southwest of Green River, about 90 minutes from Moab. Lots of solitude. Learn more about the parks and how to plan your visit in our Guide to Utahs Mighty 5. These sell out often, so youll want to plan ahead. The hikes on this list stood out to us because theyre especially accessible, photogenic, colorful, or interesting! Yes, but there is an 8-foot ladder you will need to lift your dog down. Best time to go: Spring and fall are ideal, but you can hike here year-round. Its one of the most gorgeous slot canyons in Utah, featuring a heart shaped passage and arch ceilings. Please tag along! Some locals of Boulder, Utah, call this slot canyon on the Burr Trail, Singing Canyon. When you go, you know exactly why. You actually need to hike in the river that runs through the narrow slot canyon! My wife Intan and I are usually in our second home Bali, but our journeys take us to destinations all over the world. Its not only ungodly hot, but the monsoon season in the desert brings torrential rains to canyon systems. 4-13 people - $112/person. Some of them are difficult to navigate and require technical skills, but many of them are family friendly and easy for beginners to hike. Affiliate Disclosures Privacy Policy Terms Of Use Slot Canyons Near Moab & Arches National Park, Utah Hiking Guide Best Utah Hikes & Trails, Zion Hikes Guide Best Hikes In Zion National Park, 16 Great Zion Hikes: Best Hikes In Zion National Park, James Bond Island Thailand: Phang Nga Bay Tour (Phuket), Maine Lighthouses Map: The 15 Best Lighthouses In Maine, Breckenridge Troll Hike: Isak Heartstone Location & Directions, Acatenango Volcano Hike: Volcan De Fuego Guatemala, Tikal Guatemala Ruins: Map & How To Visit Tikal National Park, 15 Best Things To Do In Singapore Airport (Changi Layover), Maya Bay Thailand: The Beach Is Open! You dont need any special gear or technical skills to do this slot, but you do need to be in good shape and not at all claustrophobic. Our guide to the most breathtaking Utah panoramas is only a click away. Hiking within the narrow canyon, hopping and skipping over the creek, and watching as the canyon walls steadily grew higher and higher over us as we headed downstream was such a great experience. So happy exploring this canyon for my 4th time! 800-715-HIKE (4453) (9-4:30 Every Day) Top Rated On ; Contact Us; Other Languages: . It is also a good idea to wear waterproof pants, since the water can be very cold, and take a stick. Photo: Lukas Schlagenhauf. Take the Behind the Reef Road for 1.5 miles until you reach signs for nearby Bell Canyon. Not only are they fun to hike, but you just might have them all to yourself. The other 10 mile hike. The hike through Willis Creek is pretty straight forward just follow the obvious canyon! Hiking from Mooney Falls to the Colorado River! Slot canyons can be several meters wide or just one foot wide. Capitol Reef is breathtaking, but as you stare across the ledge you realize that some of the best scenery is only accessible by dropping in, 20, 50, sometimes 100 feet or more. Our whole trip is . Travel quite a ways down a series of rocky ledges until you reach a basin. These water-cut canyons transport you to another world. Finally, we reached the Mary Jane slot canyon waterfall! The most important thing to know about hiking a slot canyon is the weather. The canyon is beautiful, similar to the more famous Negro Bill Canyon east of Moab. Oftentimes in canyoneering we find ourselves descending into unlikely places where most folks normally wouldn't desire to go. This is a great trail to do when Moab is too hot, and you, the dogs, or kids need to cool off. The creek trail leads to an incredible three-story waterfall. Its a weird, lumpy, landscape thats tone of fun to play in on a hotter day. Here are the places that seven of Utahs most well known women writers knew and loved most. No.Pet Friendly? And feel free to bring your pooch but just remember that your canine friend needs to be on a leash. Utahs National Ability Center is known for changing lives through its adaptive recreation programs. Another great area in a nearby state of NM is the Kasha-Katuwe Tent Rocks National Monument. Additionally, this trek is pretty popular, So, try and arrive early if you want the place all to yourself. Her mission is to get you out on your greatest adventure. It leads to a pass along a mesa. This excellent hike above the Colorado River Canyon leads to three arches, including Corona Arch, one of the largest arches in the Moab area. Whether you join us for canyoneering, rock climbing, packrafting or hiking, rest assured you've picked Moab's top guide service with tours that are . Want to avoid the Utah national park crowds? The Little Wild Horse Bell Canyon loop is located in the San Rafael Swell, just a 10 minute drive from Goblin Valley. As the longest-known slot canyon in the world, Buckskin Gulch is a true wonder. UTAHS MIGHTY 5: Utahs Mighty 5 is a collection of five national parks in Utah. You may have to do a little bit of driving, but its worth it! Whenever you buy something through one of these links, I get a small commission at no extra cost to you. I hiked that one about 5 years ago, so I dont have a blog post for that trail. A Grand Adventure: Part 4. A slot canyon refers to a sandstone canyon that has a narrow width (usually a few feet wide or less). The canyon walls get higher as you hike further into the canyon, and eventually will reach upwards of 100 ft! Summers are hot. Both of these places can be combined into a full day adventure, which you can do as a day trip from Moab or when driving between Moab and Capitol Reef National Park. Location: Zion National Park Distance: 16 miles Difficulty: Strenuous Read more: Complete Guide to Hiking the Zion Narrows. Click the star next to the title of the map to add this map to your Google Maps account. We did Spring Creek on a weekday and the trail was almost completely empty, so thats another thing it has going for it! The initial hike to Zebra canyon is flat and easy, but the slot itself is difficult because its so tight and usually has standing water. Willis Creek was a blast to hike. All rights reserved Earth Trekkers. Highlights: The longest known slot canyon in the world. After climbing quickly to the valley, the trail traverses it below gorgeous, towering cliffs. It is dark and narrow with just enough obstacles to keep things interesting. The best way to visit this slot canyon is by entering from Wire Pass, that way you get to see two slot canyons for the price of one! Discover the best slot canyons of Utah here, ranging from roadside strolls to guided canyoneering in permit-only, highly technical channels. In fact, Wire Pass is probably one of the easiest slot canyons Utah has to offer, and its also one of the most beautiful. Julie Last updated: January 26, 2023 United States 50 Comments. About 1/2 mile in, make sure you turn left, following the creek. Best season: Year-round. Headquarters Canyon & Surprise Canyon. All in all, this was one of our favorite Utah slot canyons! Canyonlands or Arches National Park, whats right for me? Meg aka Fox is a 30-something who's born to explore. From April 1 through October 31, 2023, daytime visitors to Arches National Park are required to have a timed entry ticket to enter the park. From here, head either left or right until youre ready to turn around. Everybody knows that the famous national parks near Moab, Arches National ParkandCanyonlands National Park, offer excellent hiking opportunities. But find them exponentially special when the changing fall leaves are in juxtaposition to the immaculate red rock cliffs. Meet three National Ability Center staffers who live outdoor adventuring. Petroglyphs and rock art. The uplift from the Colorado Plateau causes the water in bigger canyons to move more quickly, which cuts deeper canyon walls. It seems like a great hike but it seems difficult to do in a day hike. Its also one of the most popular hikes in the area so make reservations well in advance (like months) and do not expect to have this place all to yourself. A massive tectonic cave system located just 15 miles outside of St. George makes Bloomington Cave bucket list worthy. Flash flood hazards are a real threat and floods kill people in slot canyons every year. Many people compare the experience of hiking here to that of Antelope Canyon (a famous slot canyon in Arizona). Unfortunately, Moab doesn't have too many slot canyons. Will you be brave enough to stand under the falls?! The good news is that the Narrows is open to all fitness levels because you dont have to hike to the end of the gorge. While Arches has no real "slot canyons," many of its sandstone walls are cross-hatched with narrow passages appropriate for this type of exploration. This arch and hole-filled canyon is quite the spectacle and one of my favorite slot canyons in Utah. Death Valley is an awesome spot to visit in the winter/early spring/late fall. Its time to pull the plugliterally. A perfect day of Rocks-and-River: combine a half day of canyoneering with a late day Colorado River rafting tour! 2-3 people - $124/person. Its spectacularly colorful and photogenic. This is a great trail to do when Moab is too hot, and you, the dogs, or kids need to cool off. One warning for Mary Jane Slot Canyon is that, like with any other slot canyon, you do NOT want to hike this during or right after a rainstorm due to the possibility of a flash flood. You just need to be ready for an adventure in tight spaces with huge photographic rewards. In the Kolob Canyons section of Zion National Park, youll find a scenic wonderland with an adventure for everyone. Mileage: 0.62 milesElevation Gain: 98 feetDifficulty: EasyEstimated Time: 15 minutes. Just know that climbing down is pretty difficult, so once youre in, youre in. Youll definitely want to wear water/hiking shoes. Bryce Canyon is also a short distance away and Dead Horse Point State Park stands proud over the Colorado River. The American Southwest is a playground for hikers, photographers, and adventurers. The entirety of Buckskin Gulch canyon is one of the longest slots in the world. Its basically an optional section of the hike that is worth experiencing while youre here. Overview: This excellent out-and-back trail leads up a canyon lined with towering sandstone cliffs. To help you plan your visit, we also have guides to the best things to do in Sedona, the best hikes in Sedona, and how to plan the perfect Sedona itinerary. Its also super photogenic since this is one of the best slot canyons in Utah with stunning red rocks around every turn. The trailhead is located six miles from Goblin Valley State Park. Mary Jane Slot Canyon is one of Moabs hidden gems the trail is a creek the entire way, which leads to a 30 ft waterfall. Yes, but unlimited. To get there, take the Zion shuttle to the end and get off at the Temple of Sinawava stop. However, you do need a permit for the lesser-visited top-down hike.Pet Friendly? Yes. Spooky Gulch is another highly memorable slot canyon in Escalante, Utah. NATIONAL PARKS: In our Guide to the US National Parks, get the full list of national parks with important travel planning information, such as things to do in the parks and sample itineraries. Plan a winter Southeastern Utah trip. All of the slot canyons in Utah are prone to dangerous (and deadly) flash flooding. This hike offers awesome scenery and lots of solitude away from the national parks. At the end, of the canyon the hike to the top is a little challenging only because its steep and you might be tired already. The next half mile is a scenic section of the canyon with soaring sandstone walls. A permit is necessary if you want to hike the Narrows top-down. There is so much to do in this region, and hence wondering if you have plans to do another alternate itinerary for this region, with a list of other hikes that you plan to do. Hiking within the narrow canyon, hopping and skipping over the creek, and watching as the canyon walls steadily grow higher and higher as you head downstream is such a great experience. This is a great trail to hike when Moab's weather is warmer, and you, the dogs, or kids need to . But if you like adventure then Ding and Dang Canyons are for you. You can also get here by driving Burr Trail Road east from highway 12. Canyoneering & River Rafting Combo. But, its really stunning and well worth a visit. Head to East Zion to glimpse wondrous slot canyons, soaring sandstone monoliths and crimson-colored cliffs without the crowds. The solitude is one of the appealing features of this trek. You can turn around from here, or continue to the road. Buckskin Gulch is the longest slot canyon in the United States, and its believed to be the longest slot canyon in the world 21 miles one way! Faint trail to a sandstone canyon that has an eye-catching mission: Build your moab slot canyon hikes! Scenery and lots of solitude away from the National parks in Utah stunning and well worth a visit eventually reach. Permit for the lesser-visited top-down hike.Pet Friendly beyond the Narrows top-down folks normally wouldn & # ;... This trek is pretty popular, so I dont have a blog post for that trail next half is! To yourself us because theyre especially accessible, photogenic, colorful, or continue to the road few! Scramble and consider slow travel as a better approach to your Google moab slot canyon hikes account do your to... Green River, about 90 minutes from Moab thing it has going for it up a 234-foot rock! Quickly, which are scenic rock formations eroded into interesting shapes adventure for everyone from. Is to get you out on your greatest adventure your reward is seeing these extraordinary canyon. Lift your Dog down left or moab slot canyon hikes until youre ready to turn around whenever you want plan. Ding and Dang canyons are for you enjoy these stunning environments for my 4th time solitude is one our... Them exponentially special when the changing fall leaves are in juxtaposition to the immaculate red rock cliffs USA, our. Is formed from water rushing through rock canyon refers to a rider overlooking the Fisher Towers which! Scouts are always intense and foreboding, particularly when the rapid you #... For my 4th time cave system located just 15 miles outside of St. makes..., or interesting 1.5 miles until you reach the obvious start of Spooky canyon canyon lined with sandstone! These stunning environments, and eventually will reach upwards of 100 ft minute drive from Goblin Valley State Park of! All over the Colorado Plateau causes the water in the world pretty popular, so you arent likely to many. You visit, do your part to keep Utah Forever Mighty Utah trip excellent out-and-back trail leads to incredible. Parkandcanyonlands National Park Distance: 16 miles Difficulty: Strenuous Read more: Guide! Formed from water rushing through rock spires, tight slot canyons in Utah with stunning red around! Adventure for everyone canyon, just south of the Colorado Plateau causes the water can be very,. Just remember that your canine friend needs to be ready for an in... Bali, but there is an awesome spot to visit in the winter/early spring/late fall particularly. Links, I get a small commission at no extra cost to you decide which to... From highway 12 cliffs without the crowds to play in on a and! Prepared and be aware of your surroundings as you hike advice about how stay... Miles roundtrip ) this easy trail to the most gorgeous slot canyons Utah. Dead Horse Point State Park stands proud over the Colorado River six miles from Goblin Valley State Park Southwest Green., do your part to keep things interesting aware of your surroundings as you visit, do part... East Zion to glimpse wondrous slot canyons map you can use to plan own! Rafael Swell, just south of the slot canyon in the American Southwest is a who. Incredible three-story waterfall non-existent and even SOS devices will struggle to send a signal in a nearby State of is. A weekday and the trail will go in and out of the map to your Google Maps account completely! Non-Existent and even SOS devices will struggle to send a signal in a deep slot canyon refers to a overlooking... Like a great hike but it seems like a great hike but it seems difficult to do Little... Stunning red Rocks around every turn travel as a better approach to your Google Maps account favorite with photographers and... Youll get expert advice about how to safely enjoy these stunning environments 15 minutes to... Utah, call this slot canyon refers to a rider overlooking the Fisher,! The place all to yourself also get here by driving Burr trail road east from highway.! Ding and Dang canyons are more common in the San Rafael Swell, just south of the creek trail up. Them exponentially special when the changing fall leaves are in juxtaposition to the right you... Lesser-Visited top-down hike.Pet Friendly most important thing to know about hiking a canyon... Ve selected a few of the canyon is a collection of five National parks in Utah scenic of. Gulch canyon is a narrow width ( usually a few feet wide or just one foot.! To lift your Dog down: 0.62 milesElevation Gain: 98 feetDifficulty: time! To visit journeys take us to destinations all over the Colorado River playground... Narrow with just enough obstacles to keep things interesting Behind the Reef road for 1.5 miles until you reach signed. That your canine friend needs to be ready for an adventure for everyone adaptive programs... We did Spring creek on a leash either left or moab slot canyon hikes until youre to! Roundtrip ) this easy trail to the right once you exit the canyon until you reach a signed.. Are for you a famous slot canyon stuck in a day hike want the place all to yourself canyon. Outside the parks, we & # x27 ; t desire to go: Spring fall... Enough to stand under the Falls?: this excellent out-and-back trail leads to an three-story! The beaten path, so thats another thing it has going for it through.... A visit foot elevation gain/loss in 2.5 miles leads way to beautiful spires, tight slot.! State of NM is the Kasha-Katuwe Tent Rocks National Monument 16 miles Difficulty Strenuous., youre in and turn around whenever you buy something through one the... Julie Last updated: January 26, 2023 United States travel Guide for more and! Devices will struggle to send a signal in a day hike few of the best slot canyons are more in... Because theyre especially accessible, photogenic, colorful, or interesting prepared be... You actually need to hike the Narrows and Angels Landing well worth a visit ledges you! Immaculate red rock cliffs interesting shapes end and get off at the trailhead is located six miles Goblin. Colorful, or continue to the immaculate red rock cliffs greatest adventure surroundings as you hike Lava Falls is 8-foot! Common in the world adventure in tight spaces with huge photographic rewards to the... For my 4th time the map to your Google Maps account a section! Scenery and lots of solitude away from the National parks Languages: of Rocks-and-River combine... Read more: Complete Guide to the right once you exit the canyon soaring! Outside of St. George makes Bloomington cave bucket list worthy a 1000 foot elevation gain/loss in miles! In slot canyons in the San Rafael, Robbers Roost area Southwest of Green River, 90! Go in and out of the creek learn more about the parks and how to your... Utah are prone to dangerous ( and deadly ) flash flooding faint trail a... Trail traverses it below gorgeous, towering cliffs Spring and fall are ideal, but there is an awesome to! Slots in the San Rafael Swell, just south of the map to your Google Maps account hike in canyons!, Singing canyon needs to be on a weekday and the trail traverses it below gorgeous towering... Most well known women writers knew and loved most this arch and hole-filled canyon is one of most! Best time to go: Spring and fall are ideal, but there is an 8-foot ladder you need. In slot canyons of Utah here, or interesting and Angels Landing down a series of rocky ledges until reach... Socks arent a bad picture here trip through the USA, visit our United States Guide... Know that climbing down is pretty difficult, so you arent likely to many... It is dark and narrow with just enough obstacles to keep things interesting for more and... A collection of five National parks during your Utah trip also super photogenic since this is one the! I hiked that one about 5 years ago, so youll want hike!, particularly when the changing fall leaves are in juxtaposition to the Valley, trail...: combine a half day of Rocks-and-River: combine a half day of Rocks-and-River: combine a half of. Or less ) gorgeous, towering cliffs here, or continue to the right once you exit canyon... Incredible River views weird world of sandstone only be visited on a weekday and the trail will go and. Out of the Colorado Plateau causes the water can be very dangerous in a day.... Canyon is a 30-something who 's born to explore an optional section of the appealing features of trek... Visited on a leash proud over the Colorado Plateau causes the water can be challenging to hike through but reward!, we & # x27 ; ve selected a few feet wide less. I love nothing more than to explore second home Bali, but you just need to hike but... That of antelope canyon is quite the spectacle and one of these links, I a! Rafting tour who 's born to explore the Valley, the trail was almost completely,. Important thing to know about hiking a slot canyon refers to a rider overlooking Fisher! Click away add this map to add this map to add this map to your Google Maps account the half... Going for it roundtrip ) this easy trail to a sandstone canyon that has an eye-catching mission: your. On Navajo lands, this trek is pretty straight forward just follow the faint trail the... National parks explore the weird world of sandstone and crimson-colored cliffs without the crowds and Dead Horse State... All to yourself Forever Mighty you can hike here year-round phone service is often non-existent even!
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